EP001: From Incarceration to a Life of Activism with Antong Lucky

 Welcome to Transcending Identity. I'm your host, Nichole Lee, and I am thrilled to be your guide on this incredible journey of self-discovery and transformation. This podcast is designed to help you connect deeper with yourself and transcend the identities, beliefs, and environments that may be holding you back from living your best life through insightful interviews, thought provoking discussions, and practical advice.

I speak with incredible people from around the world who share their stories of transformation, transcendence and triumph. From entrepreneurs to spiritual teachers, athletes to activists. You'll learn how they overcame obstacles and reach new heights in their lives. I will also share my personal stories, insights, and tools along the way by listening to this podcast.

I hope you feel seen,  supported and inspired to live your best life. Thanks for spending time with me today. Your time to transcend starts now.

Today's inspirational guest is Antong Lucky. I first discovered Antong on LinkedIn and I was deeply moved by his powerful story of transformation and redemption.

This led me to read his national bestselling memoir, A Redemptive path Forward from Incarceration to a life of activism. As I turned the pages, I found myself more and more inspired. Born in the seventies, Anton grew up in the impoverished and crime ridden neighborhood of East Dallas, Texas. At just nine months old, his father was sentenced to 50 years in prison.

He was a kindhearted and gifted child who found refuge in school and was praised for his academic excellence at home. Despite this, Antong couldn't escape the allure and pressures of the pervasive drug and gang culture that surrounded him. He'd eventually succumb to a life of crime and violence, feeling it was the only way to survive.

This path led him and his cousins to establish the first blood gang in Dallas in the nineties, resulting in a seven year prison sentence for Antong. Yet it was during this period of confinement that Anton underwent a profound transformation. He embarked on an introspective journey, reflecting on how he had strayed from a gifted student to a life of crime.

He deeply questioned the contradiction between his actions and his true self. A good-hearted person yearning to make a positive impact in the world, embracing his true self and innate leadership qualities. Antong denounced his gang affiliations and committed himself to helping others heal and reshape their lives, marking a pivotal shift in his life's trajectory.

For more than two decades now, Antong has been an unstoppable force working relentlessly to put an end to violence and build sustainable communities. As a practitioner of peace and non-violence, he wears many hats, an activist, an advocate, and a motivational speaker. His focus lies in mentoring men and boys, bridging the gap between communities and law enforcement, and devising strategies for criminal justice reform, violence reduction, and reentry initiatives for formerly incarcerated individuals.

Antong currently serves in several roles, including President of Urban Specialists, co-chair of the Heal America Movement Board Director for Frazier Revitalization Inc, and Stand Together Foundation, and a member of the Circle 10 Council Advisory Board for Boy Scouts of America. I am so grateful Antong agreed to share his profound wisdom and life-changing story with you today.

As you listen to this episode, I hope it sparks a flame within you, inspiring you to rise above any adversity and make a significant difference in the world.

Oh, Antong, I am so excited. And so happy that you are joining us on this podcast today. I am just so excited for people to hear your story and all of the wisdom that you have to share and just to share with everyone.

It'll be in the show notes, but you have to pick up Antong's book, A Redemptive Path Forward from Incarceration to a Life of Activism. I read this book in a matter of a few days. I didn't wanna put it down the way it's written. You feel like you're living the life with Anton, but just the messages, the wisdom that is in this book.

I don't care what background you come from, this is a book for you to read. So with that, I would love for us to actually start when the thing in the book that was so powerful actually, is where you started in saying you are a product of love. So I would love for you to talk a bit about that connection with your parents and where your journey started as a child that then started to kind of shift based on the environments in which you and your parents were living.

Right, right. And, and first of all, Nichole, thank you for having me on this show. I mean, it was a no brainer when I, when I read the title of the show, transcendent Identity, I definitely say I definitely transcended identity. And so I'm honored to be on this show. I won't just start out with that, but when I, when I make that statement that I was a product of love by all accounts, when I was going back and kind of looking at my life, everyone that I encountered, whether it was an uncle, aunt, friend, family friend, et cetera, et cetera, They always talked in high esteem of the relationship between my mother and my father.

Like they said, like when they met, you know, they were just like stuck together. Like he was like, they were the, they were decoupled, right? So I know that my mother and my father had this love bond, right? They, they connected early sixties, late sixties, early seventies, and, and they connected. And, and I knew that, you know, going back, talking to people I knew, I could feel from people telling me how my, my father was over my mother and how my mother though, my father.

So I knew that. But my father was ultimately sentenced when I was nine months old to 50 years in prison that he ultimately did 37 years outta my life, right? And so growing up, growing up as a kid, right? As far as back, far back as I can remember, I could remember those times as a kid that I felt kinda out of place.

Like I didn't have a place, I didn't have identity because what had happened when my father was sent to prison, it broke my mother heart so much because she had so much invested into the relationship that she had to, she had to move on. She, she closed that chapter of, of her life, uh, because she, now, she was a teenage mother trying to raise a son by herself in the early seventies, which was very, very hard 'cause she had to drop outta school and, and get a job, et cetera, et cetera.

So she had no time for no relationship, but to try to make ends meet, to raise this wide-eyed baby boy that she had, right?  big head baby boy that she had . So she, she moved on with her life, but what ended up happening was she moved on with her life, but no one never stopped for a second. To reaffirm with me what had happened as related to my father.

Mm-hmm. You know, all I knew was that he, he was in prison, but no one explained to me why no one explained to me nothing. It was just like, it was just this cold, dark place that I was in, and I was a kid, and I remember as a kid, cold, just, just really wanting to know that, you know, wanting to know like, who was my father?

I remember going as early as I could remember, going to parent conferences, right? Where I felt as the, I can remember the feeling, feeling very embarrassed and full of shame. I sometimes I felt dumb that I didn't, that my father wasn't present, but I had nobody that I could explain that to. I had no one that, that, those feelings that I was feeling in my little frame that I can express that to, or someone who was skillful enough to talk to me about what I was feeling, so I just bottled it in.

Right. But I remember feeling . Like, something was wrong with me not having a father, and, and more so, I felt more ashamed because I was too ashamed to even ask. I didn't want to ask nobody, like, because it, it just felt as a kid, I remember feeling like, that's pretty dumb, that you have to ask someone who your father is.

And so I grew up with those kind of feelings and so, which made me put a lot of my talents into school because school became like my escape. My mother worked longer hours. School was my escape, so, and I moved through the ranks of school pretty good. I was a straight A student. I was a talented, gifted student.

They wanted to move me up a couple grades. I just, that was my to deal with, to compensate for my father not being there and nobody not speaking to me and talking to me and dealing this. I put all my energy in school and so, And my grandparents, I stayed in the book. They became my primary caretakers.

Right? They would, okay. Pray. They would tell me. When I came home with those grades, man, they made me feel good. They blew my, they blew my head up. , . I could just see a little Anton, just cheesing. Just that, just teasing it up. It's very interesting too that you found that safe haven in school, which is sometimes a rarity as well.

And I remember in the book the conflict you even had with yourself, right? Because we know many times in those environments, being the smart kid is not cool and unfortunately know what the work you do is still an issue, right? And so just recognizing you had this outlet of being adored and praised from family, but also conflicted and, and wanting to be.

in the books, but wanting to still be cool. How did you navigate that? Like how were you able to balance that so effectively that that still became part of the core of who you were? That was definitely a balancing act for me. That was something that I mastered too, because as you mentioned, you know, in the home, being praised for good grades was, was a good thing because it was in the home and it was around people that love you.

But I learned quick at an early age that bullies get, I mean, smart kids get bullied, right? That, and growing up in neighborhoods, growing up in communities like I grew up in community, under-resourced, poverty, et cetera, et cetera. Being the smart kid is not optimal thing to be, because most kids are not, that.

Most kids are dealing with a lot of these issues that they're dealing with, and they're compensated by taking it out on kids who are who, who are smart, et cetera, et cetera. So I had to, it was definitely a duality for me because I. I would be, get praised at home and I would try to hide being smart around my friends, right?

Mm-hmm. , because I understood that in my community, the name of the game wasn't being smart. It was about survival. Like who's the toughest, who's the roughest, et cetera, et cetera. Because we didn't have positive male role models and programming that reached kids like me or kids that, where I was from, I'm quite sure there was some mm-hmm.

but they didn't reach that far to us, right? And so we didn't have that. And so for me, I had to, I had to balance this thing of being smart, but knowing when to turnaround, when to turn out. And that became a full-time, full-time thing for me. Because every day, as I've mentioned before, going home after school depended on two things.

How fast I could run or how hard I can fight, you know? Wow. And it was, I remember as a kid, just, I couldn't understand why it was like that. Like why kids who were like me, who parents were going through what we were going through. I mean, we weren't rich. We was living in the hood. Why? It was just ingrained in us to hate each other, to fight each other, to have something against, I just knew at my court that there was something, as a kid, I knew there was something wrong with that.

Like I was a naturally kind of friendly, you know, love everybody, make sure everybody type, everybody all right, type of kid. But that wasn't the going norm. I mean, that one, that wasn't the thing. And, and I remember just saying to myself like, how there's something evil about this. Like, how is this, why, how I can meet a, a kid that stay a mile away from me and ingrained in his head, I'm his enemy.

Yeah. And we have, we have, we supposed to fight and we supposed to talk bad about it and we all these things, I never could understand that. Right. And so, yeah, going so, so it became a balancing act for me, trying to stay good and to the core of what my grandparents was nurturing. And when I walked outside to encounter what was happening outside, I remember literally having to amputate my personality.

Wow. I remember, wow. Wow. I could go back and say, man, I remember that moment that I said, I have to become this in order to survive. Like I have to be this. And, and I think this, it is so unfair that a child, and it's like you said, it goes on today to have to make that decision. But I remember saying what was happening, the stimuli in my environment was so, such that I was, I had to amputate who I was, change who I was and pretend to be.

That what was outside of my door, just to survive, just to make it home from school these days. I remember that. I'm just taking all of that in because you were very young. I mean, we're talking what, less than 12 years old when this was happening. Exactly. Less than 12. Yeah. And the thing that you shared too, and children have this, right?

I know you work with children this innate feeling. Yeah. That it's not right, but not being at the level of authority to change it. And so I know just reading your book, that was also some of the challenge of literally as a small child, you wanted to be the change, right? But not being in that level of authority, you had to succumb to even elements of your own family.

Right. To survive. I believe my fundamental belief is when we. Or just as wide as the sky when we're born. But we're slowly bit by bit given these notions, these ideas, these beliefs, these labels, these categories that tell us who we are and, and oftentimes those things are manufactured from the environment because of the environment that necessarily not who we are, but our minds begin to take that information in.

And just like I did amputate my personality and becoming that right, just make up all the kids who, who are good kids, who are naturally good kids come from good families, nurturing families. They get 10,000 kisses and hugs and love, but every time they walk out they door, they encounter this, they encounter this harsh reality, right?

That oftentimes mothers and parents, and. They understand, but they don't understand to the effect of how it affects the child. Yeah. They stand a degree of it. Right. They don't understand a degree. So that was me walking outside my, outside my door each day, you know, dealing with that and, and to your point, right, we know even just from the development of a child, as you mentioned, right.

That. You start to learn what is safe and a threat. And it sound like very early for you though, you had the safety in your home. You recognized it was not safe to be that all the time. So you literally had to be more than one person, even as a child, to survive and navigate in your environment. Right. And what I even read is Antong, the pressures of that led you into crime, right?

The pressure was heavier for you, right, to move in that direction because you didn't have the other outlets. Can you talk a bit about how that started to come to be that you ended up in gang activity and, and going down that route? I mean, you, you basically started the Dallas Bloods, right? You were one of the founders, right?

Give notions, kids give us these notions and these and these labels and these ideal how to be. And I think what end up happening subconsciously, I think we began bit by bit, wall by wall building these walls and, and end up becoming that, you know, we, we end up insulating that little boy or that little girl that's inside us that's good with these walls, that society, these ideas that society, society give us, right?

And sometimes it, people may say, well, how can you, how can you become that when you know right from wrong? And I always respond simply like if you walk out your house, I'm just giving this an example. You walk out your house right in the hood and then you look down the street and you see 10 guys with red sweaters on stomping some guy with blue sweaters on, you know, just your deductive breathing gonna say, Hey, go in the house and pull the red sweater, make sure everyone's red.

Right? And so just by debt, you, you end. You know, just by that you would come in. And so for me, we would, every day we would, every day I go to school, we would fight. And we had these instances with, with, with other kids in neighborhood. Even if you didn't wanna fight, you had to fight. You know how it is in the hood.

You gotta, you gotta fight or you, you have to, yeah. So I encountered that a lot. I counted that so much, so much that some stuff had translated. And these kids who we were fighting, they were already identified with gangs. They was already Crips, so they had gang affiliations. My neighborhood want that, you know, I, we want that, I want them.

But because we were fighting, we were fighting them every day, it just naturally evolved to win colors. I dunno if you remember the movie Colors? Yes, I do remember the movie Colors. And now you just, now I have iced tea playing in the back of my head right now. Yeah, yeah. We same age. So yeah. When colors came out, At time in Dallas, it was no such thing as gloves.

It was just all Crips gang, gang wise. And when we seen colors, I remember as a kids when 11, 12, 13 years old seeing colors. And I was like, wow. You know, it was just kinda like, okay, so we already fighting these people. They were blue rags, they're enemy, were red rags. And by this time, you know, I'm deviating, I, I done my grades and slip, started slipping.

I'm, I'm fighting, I'm fighting to stay in school and it's becoming increasingly difficult to try to, the street, the street is taking over, taking over this duality is just, I can't, I can't hide because I was good at first being able to manage it right, being able to turn on, turn off, but now it's getting to the point where I have to get involved, et cetera, et cetera.

And so when colors came out, man, we said we gonna be bloods, me and my cousins. And we created the first blood game and not really. Nicole, understanding the implications of that. We were really being impressed by what we were seeing. You know, our young minds were taking on what we were seeing, and we was emulating what we saw and not really understanding the implications and the ramifications of that choice that we made.

Mm-hmm.  made their choice and we became that. We became that, which we saw we did. And just listening to you too, just the heaviness of the external impressions. I mean, if you're literally seeing it on the street, Then you're seeing it in movie where we know music, the media at some point in time, that takes over.

I mean, the, the battle you have, because you have more evidence of that being the way to go. And the thing we also know, and you talked about, right, the flashiness of it as well, a lot of times in the hood, the person that had the money, the girls, the fame, all of those was tied to that type of person, right?

So the struggle, even with that, right, staying on the the positive route, but everybody's poor and struggling is also another element that makes that so difficult to move in that direction. I. In my neighborhood because again, and I wanna paint this picture in those communities that, that, that we came out of, the men who were in our communities were the drug dealers.

Those guys, the pimps, they were prominent in our neighborhoods. You know, you didn't have positive images of men. That was a positive image for us. Mm-hmm. . So imagine as a kid, we getting out the swimming pool and we, and we coming over to the store and we hungry and the drug dealers call us over to they card.

Right. And they pull out wild the money and, and they would tell us good stuff. They would say stuff like, Hey, stay in school. You know, make sure you get good grades right. But as kids, we looking at, we looking at that bankroll, right? We looking at how they dress and we looking at the cost. So even though they made mildly had the right intentions to tell us as kids to.

but we looking at the behavior, we looking at what they, we looking at what's happening. And so that message that they were given was being drowned out by they lifestyle, right? Mm-hmm.  by what we were seeing, the women, the clothes, the cars, et cetera, et cetera. So our little minds were saying, whoa, we want be, we want this.

Right? And so as, as, as good as they tried to, to give us the information, I think they, they behavior and their lifestyle, you know, appeal more to us, especially when you, in the, you know, you in poverty, but you, you know, this, you all that good stuff. I remember my, uh, My mentor used to say, man, a good heart yields to end the stomach

So, you know, you can have a good heart, but it's gonna yield to end the stomach. And so I and our stomachs were rumbling and it's beautiful that you can, I mean, laugh about it. Now, the reality of though, that was painful, right? Oh, it was. It was. And the, the fact that, like you say, just even the confusion of that, right?

Yes. Of hearing from the individuals that weren't living that life yet telling you to live it, but not having any other evidence that living that right life was going to lead to any of those things. And so you went down that route. You ended up going the other route and to the point that you were incarcerated as a young person and even as an adult and Right.

My understanding is that at the point of incarceration, that was your liberation. Oh yeah. That's where you actually broke free and really started to understand the impact, not only that you had, but that lifestyle had and things started to shift. So I would love for you to talk about what that turned out to be for you that led to where you are now.

Right. So, so look, so, so I, so I started the gang doing the gang stuff, which eventually got involved with drugs and that whole lifestyle, you know, I started living a, a lifestyle prior to prison. But I remember though, and I won't go into that because I, I'm definitely not into glamorizing that, and I don't wanna even, uh, portray that I'm gl glamorizing for them, not, but I remember my daughter was who you just met, her mother was giving birth May 7th, two weeks later.

And I remember when she was giving birth, and that was kinda like a turning point for me because now I'm becoming a father, right. I remember having all these feelings, right? Not wanting to be to my daughter, what my father was to me. I remember having that thought, you know, as a teenager, I was saying, because I remember how I would, how I felt, you know, as a kid.

And that's some feeling that I would, I wouldn't wanna wish on no kid, right? When you, uh, trying to figure out who your father is and, and, and not getting adequate love and et cetera, nurturing, et cetera, et cetera. So I remember having that, that, that like moment where I was saying, man, I'm about to be a father.

And I didn't even know what that meant because I didn't have a blueprint, I didn't have a map, I didn't have an example. And I remember it being Nicole, I'm being very honest with you. I was scared to death of the And you were young, right? I mean, you were a teenager. I was 19 when it was happening. Okay. I was 19.

That's a teenager. You weren't . I didn't have, no, I didn't have, I didn't have no, no reference point in terms of being a father because I didn't have a father. So I didn't have no reference point. And, and I remember when my daughter was being born, I remember not coming to the hospital. Something that I regret to this day.

I didn't come to the hospital when they called and said she was in labor because I didn't know what, I didn't have no one to say, Hey, what do I do in this moment? What? And I remember just shutting down and, and going into a cocoon and just, I mean, just, I, I hid from that. I hid from that. I, I came two days.

After she was born. I'll never forget that. And I ain't, I don't think I shared that with anybody, but I remember just not coming because I didn't know what to do. I was embarrassed. I was ashamed. And then two weeks later I was standing in the courtroom and the judge said, he said that I was a CE to society, that I belonged in prison.

Right. And I remember looking around in the courtroom because I literally thought he was talking to somebody else. Because in my mind I was saying, but judge, you don't understand. Like, I'm from East Dallas. Like it is tough in East Dallas. Like I'm not who they, what you read on paper, like, I had to do this stuff to survive.

Like I'm, I'm a good person. I'm this, that you just dealing with somebody who was trying to survive in the, in the neighborhood. But I never internalized this stuff, you know? But I had to beat this stuff. But my existence and those words never came outta my mouth. That was just slow motion happening in my head as he was sentencing me.

Right. And I remember as they started leading me back and I looked over and I seen my mother that look that she had on her face. I'll never forget because you gotta remember, like I was the pride and joy. You know, I was a, I was a good, I was a kid that you would never think prison. Because again, even in my gang banging in drug selling days, I was still to the core a good person.

You know, I want the person that was doing all the stuff you see on tv. I was still a good, I was still trying to hold on to everything that my grandparents imparted me. I was still holding on to that, you know, I was wearing this, this mask. I was, this duality that I had. I was wearing it well, but when he sentenced me, I went back to my holdover and I remembered this question that I posed to myself and it was, how did you go from a a on the road?

Talented and gifted through God saying You are a minister to society. I wanted to know the answer to that, and I went back to my cell pondering that question more than anything I wanted to know, like, how did that happen? How did my life go from being in the fast lane to far left lane on the freeway to to, to the far right lane by the exit?

And that's kinda how I sum up my experience with pri. It was going from far left lane to that right lane because everything slowed down and stopped. And it gave me an opportunity to be very self-reflective and introspective about how did I get to this point? And I began to trace back every decision, every circumstance.

In my life to pinpoint where I got off track at, you know, how everything affected me. I went into prison saying, looking in that stainless steel mirrors, staring at myself saying I wanted ounce and I wanted to be accountable, and I wanted to deal with the ugliness of what I was seeing and really get back to that.

Look boy who had dreams, who had vision, who had that, that, that wanted to, to be successful. I, I went back to that, to that, to my original self. And I began, you know, and that, and that took me having to strip down all of the things that I was talking about earlier. All the notions, the ideals, you know, the labels and the stuff that I took in from the community.

I had to strip out of that stuff. I had to be real with myself. I had to be real with myself. That brother, you is not a gang member. I had to be real with myself. Are you a father? You have a child that you have to be accountable to. You have to accept, you know, you can't whine and cry and complain about all the stuff that you ha that happened to you, that you have to begin to build.

And the only way you build is you have to be vulnerable and accept everything that you see in that mirror. And I started to do that, and I'm, when I tell you that was some tough stuff, tough work that I had to do. But I always looked at myself, even in prison as the example, the embodiment of the Moses of who would lead this.

Because when I got to prison, we had a lot of men who, in my opinion, wasn't ready to be vulnerable and had these conversations stripped down and, and, and do that. And I was, and I said I wanted to do that. And I began to do that. I denounced my gang in prison. I began to just unlayer. Everything that went into me because I wanted to get back to my, myself, my original self.

That good kid, you know, who, who ran in a house with their report card, who loved everybody. I didn't. I want, I, I just want in me to hate people and, and not like people and all that good stuff. I had to transcend that identity. . I really did. I, I mean, I really, that I, I had to transcend to get back to where, you know, that, that original self, and I, and I did that work.

I mean, I did that work. I was leading, doing that work, and I began to see the effects that it started having on other men. I was 20 years old in prison and I had men who were 40 and 50 years old who were seeking me out for advice because I started, I started educating myself. I started realizing who I was.

It was just, it was just a whole transformation. It was that, that, that, that, that caterpillar going into that cocoon,  coming outta butterfly. That's exactly what it was. I could describe it , and I so appreciate that. And I do remember that your love of learning, like you having the opportunity to go back into that.

And I believe that the story of Malcolm X actually helped you see yourself. Yes. Because of that similar duality and coming to that, and I, it, it, it sounded like a bit of a catalyst to ignite what was possible, right? Like you can have the energy to know something is possible and feel it, but sometimes we do need to see some representation.

And what you shared is that representation you weren't finding. And when you even found it in that story, other things lit up and divine synchronicity started to happen. The other thing that was really powerful, just even talking to you now, Antong, is . Recognizing that that power and authority that you had in the gang life created also a bit of credibility that allowed you to shift right into this butterfly and, and change the dynamics in a prison system and be able to minister and connect with individuals that when I sat and thought of this, of, may not have been possible without the street cred that you came in.

So it was almost like a divine gift. Yes. To be given that, to be able to move and shift people in the way that you were. Right. Can you talk a bit about how you started to realize some of that? I mean, you talk about that in the book, but that was very profound to me of how that reputation that could have been seen as so negative, you shifting it allowed you to really make some things happen.

And that's, that's a. That's an important catch too, because when, when I went into prison, as I said earlier, we started the first blood gang and I was so naive to what that meant. You know, we were just being teenagers doing what we do. But I was so naive to that. So when I went into prison, my mentor in prison, uh, first this guy that I met, he caught me walking after Chow Hall.

I was walking out Thehow Hall and this older brother, he had been in prison like 15 years. Uh, but he was a teacher, right? He was known. I didn't know that at the time, but I came and learned that he was teacher. And so this brother met me when coming out Hall, and I remember the conversation like it was yesterday.

He said, man, all these men and all these brothers in here, man, they fall out of place to come see. I mean, they, they, they, they, they, they'll come where I'm at, and when they don't spoke, he said, they fall out of place. He said, man, they do whatever you ask them to do, you know, they, they talk about you, you know, they praise you.

They, and for me, I hadn't even recognized none of that. I hadn't even recognized that. Right. But I, I hadn't rec I was just being me. But he made me cognizant of that. Right. He made me cognizant of that because I, I, I didn't see that. He said, man, all these brothers fall outta place for you. They do whatever you ask him to do.

And he said, look, brother, he said, if you have the power to lead these brothers to do wrong within you, it's the same ability to lead them to do. Right. He said, you leader lead these brothers to do Right. And I was taken aback by that. Right. Because I hadn't noticed. How people were very gregarious to me. I didn't, I didn't pay attention to that.

I didn't see that. You didn't realize the influence that you had, right? I didn't, I didn't realize the influence. I didn't realize people, as you said, I had the credibility, but I didn't, I wasn't thinking like that. 'cause you remember when I, when I, when I left the county jail, I was pondering how did I go from an honor roll student to be labeled a gang member.

So I, I had began my unle unraveling right there. So, so when I came into prison course, when I went, looked back in hindsight, I had these brothers who would try, everybody wanted to be around me, but I didn't take that as the way the, the mentor saw it. Mm-hmm. He said, it's an opportunity for you to shift these brothers.

Right. You, you have something, there's something about you that you have the ability to shift these brothers because they all are kinda looking at you. Right. It, it took me, I was shook by it, but when I went back to my bunk, I started thinking about it and then he, he popped up on me again and he gave me, he gave me the autobiography of Malcolm X by Alex Haley, and he said, read this book.

And I started reading that book and as I read that book, I really read that book. And I started looking at Malcolm and man, I said, wow, you know, going from Detroit Red to debating with some of the best debaters at Oxford University. I was impressed by that. And then, and I was looking at how Malcolm spent 14 hours a day in prisons reading, like he studied the dictionary from A to Z.

He said the blueprint he, to go from Detroit red and everything he used to do in the streets, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, to being in prison and really. He said the blueprint, you know, he started getting all that. And I, and I, I had a Malcolm moment because I realized once I gotta prison, I realized how much stuff, I didn't know how much stuff that they didn't teach me in school.

Right. That wasn't in the history books, et cetera, et cetera. So that gave me this like, insatiable, insatiable, a appetite that I was like, I wanna read everything under the sun. I mean, and I began to read, look, I would be at the, I would be, I didn't play. No, you were shut. You were shutting it down. Okay. Yes.

I didn't play no dominoes. I didn't, I didn't play chord. I, I didn't, none of, I didn't play none of that stuff. I spent days and days on hand at the table. I'm talking about literally, I'm not captain. I would spend days and days at hand at the table, just read to the point that brothers used to come in the, come in the day room and they.

They were playing this right. One person, two, three people grabbed me.  would hold you down,  hold me down. Somebody would grab books and take the books off the table and they would drag me out to the rec yard saying, look, you gonna bust your brain, bro. You gotta give it a break. You know, they would do that.

That's how much I started reading. And, and I was digesting that information. I became friends with the librarian to the point she would gimme books and I was reading everything, you know, I had, I mean, I was reading philosophy, I read world history, everything, right? And I was just, I just had this, I was chasing Malcolm X, and I can say I read 16 hours a day.

Malcolm read 14. I read 16 . I would chase. So your competitive spirit, you had to, you had to outdo Malcolm . Oh, I had to outdo Malcolm. He was, he was my, he was the boss. So I started going 16 hours a day, nonstop reading. And I, and I was just getting that information. And uh, this other brother that I. Nathan McCall make you wanna holler.

Was was a book that, it was like the Bible in prison because it was his brother from Portsmouth, Virginia who had the same similar experience, you know, went from crime to to prison, finding himself in prison. Then he started working for the Washington Post. So him and Malcolm was kind of my idea. They was my, my, my belief that this stuff can happen.

And, and I took that same road in prison and, and it just opened up a whole nother world for me. I mean, I began to bring brothers because I was shadowing a lot of norms, right? Mm-hmm.  a lot of, a lot of norms that these brothers had accepted. A lot of identities that these brothers had accepted. I began to poke holes in them.

You know, I, I began to poke holes in the idea of a gang member, an idea of a pimp, an idea of all the stuff that they were talking about. I began to poke holes in them and really, Bring brothers back to their true self and they core, because I was using my life as an example, my life was the example. So I, everything was happening in real time.

I'm using my life as an example to un she un, you know, and get back to our original identity, et cetera, et cetera. So that's what I started doing. That became my life in prison. And I think, and I will say this, I think because I was so convicted in this belief that that ended up becoming my credibility.

But I think a lot of brothers, because I wasn't the baddest person in prison, but I was very sharp, I very smart. And I think a lot of brothers, they feared me, ridiculing them if, if you know something like that. Because I was just so quick with and sharp. But I was always about love, unity, you know, accountability, you know, understanding who you really are versus these labels.

And these things that we are pretending to be. I was, that was, that was, that was the core of who I was. The core of who I was, was what? This, what this podcast about transcending identity. That's who I was. I was saying, Hey, you not a gang member. You not a, this, you not a that you are. And and I was. That man, and, and I was just doing it in real time.

And the thing I just, I love listening to what you're saying too, because as you became so short in yourself in that just natural way of moving, people gravitate to that. Right? And so at the core of your heart and everything we talked about, at the end of the day, people are looking for love, acceptance, connection.

And so to, to meet someone who had that credibility, but you also feel the warmth of their heart, which, you know, that's what they're looking for anyway. And then to be sharp, witted, , right? To be highly intelligent. I mean, you talk about triple threat in a good way. , I'm just imagining, right? 'cause it's like we, how, how did you take that?

But I'm just looking at all of those things really coming together to be . This perfect meld of what many of our black and brown people need. Right. It it is an element of that toughness because that is what you're used to. The familiarity brings you in. Right. But the love has you stay. Yeah. And that's, that was just so powerful with your story of when you embrace the, the love part of you, but recognizing the toughness could work together, how has that worked for you and, and maybe we even transition you coming out of prison, right.

And all the amazing things you're doing because what I sense is you found harmony in those things versus seeing them as duality of, of flipping them. You found a way to marry them together with the work you're doing. See, and I think, I think when I, when I looked at everything right, I was, I was really challenging in real time.

Those ideas that I, that that was, that was conflicting with what you just said. Mm-hmm. , I was, and I was challenging and I, I guess the boldness of it and the courageousness part of it, because I would bring, and before I trans transitioned transition, I would bring, because people wanted to be around me so much, just because I knew it, it was kind of proven that most of these men, they wanted love, they wanted to escape.

They, they knew emphatically and intuitively that these ideologies that they've embraced wasn't what it was. They knew that, but no one was brave enough to step outside of it because it's all they knew. Because to shed, that means you naked, you burned. Yes. You know, you don't have nothing to hide. You, you, everything, your vulnerability, your, all that stuff is on, on display.

And, and sometimes that's hard for people, you know, it's hard to step out into that when you don't have nothing to replace it with. And so I began to challenge that. Right. And, and, and, and I think brothers, they start seeing it as strength versus weakness, right? And that was the first, first beginning of really understanding that being vulnerable is not being weak, it's being strong.

You know, that we had been tricked into believing that men ain't supposed to crop, men ain't supposed to have feelings, men ain't for this. And, and, and we create this hard exterior that blocks love and everything else out. We freeze on inside. And so I

rule. But the wises rule 'em all, right? Mm-hmm. I understood that. Right. Strong rule of weak, but the wises rule 'em all. So I was bringing these dudes together saying, you know what we, what we, what we had ours about. And I was talking to them about stuff that wasn't regular prison talk. You know, I started talking to 'em about their families.

I started talking to 'em about their mothers. I thought talking to 'em about their wives, their kids, you know, I was having these kind and those con those kind of conversations is, is you can't dodge them. I mean, you can't, you can only fake for so long, but you going, you going to come to grips with the real.

So I was having these conversations, I was creating scenarios, et cetera, et cetera, and I would, I was just cognitive enough to know that when some brothers starts getting it, to know how to bring them on in, you know, because Mm. To reem in mm-hmm.  like, uh, so, so, so look, uh, So you saying that, you know, they'll, they'll come ask me a question, right?

And so I didn't never, I didn't never treat they inquisitiveness as, you know, it was dumb or they should be asking that, or, you know, I always, I always welcome them in. And I got good at that to where I would have brothers, we'd be sitting around the table talking about philosophy. You know, have a bunch of , bunch of bunch of men who had convicts or whatever.

We'll be talking about philosophy and the theory of form and all kinds of philosophical concepts, right? Because I knew innately and I knew within each one of these men was that little boy that liked me. That, that, that, that, that was this. Dumped all these ideas on and made them amate they personality. I knew that.

And so I, I knew at the core of everybody is love, you know, they got love in they heart. You just gotta dig through it and get it. And I, and I became a surgeon. Yeah. See, love is the answer. , how about my love is the answer T-shirt, ? It's, yeah. So I was, love is the answer. And so that's one thing that I, Nicole, I was very conscious of.

And, and that was showing love, you know, over love to anybody regardless of who they was, what they denomination or what they race was, what their orientation was. I showed love, and I think people, people drew to me because of that. Because I, I didn't have this, this judgmental, stereotypical da da da, you know, I didn't have that.

I was always winning people with love. And so that became like how people knew me, you know? And so, I hope I answered that with your question. That was beautiful. 'cause you gave evidence, right? Mm-hmm. . So we know that talking about these things, but then seeing it and feeling it is how you start to reprogram or deconstruct Yes.

Right? Those systems. And so it sounds like too, that . Just even with the love creating a safe space, so we go back to safety and a threat. You recognize too, what I'm hearing is the more they actually feel safe Right, exactly. With you, then they learn to be safe in themselves. Within then allows them to then have the curiosity, to have the conversations, the connection, all of those things.

Right? And so creating an element of safety, which when we started this conversation, that's what got you to where you were, is you didn't feel safe. Right? So I'm just thinking about all these other men, they went through that similar experience. Well being the kindhearted or loving or smart child wasn't safe.

Right? Right. And you basically broke down those constructs. Man, and you, it, it's beautiful how you count that, how you pick that up. You good, you good at what you do because most people wouldn't have caught that. But that, that's exactly what, that's exactly what happened. Creating that, uh, creating that safe space for them.

I mean that, because I'm gonna say this and we can move, but I'm gonna say this. If you just only understood how many letters that I've written to wives, to children, to mothers on behalf of men, that reunited them back to they family, I could, I could feel it as you said it. Hey, I would, I would tell a brother, listen, because they didn't know how, right?

Mm-hmm. , I would say, man, let me read your, let's just take a wife. Let me read her letters to you. I'm talking this, where she have cut the communication, she's moved on and he's still that, right? I'm gimme the letters. I read the letters and I. Write a letter back to her as you would write it. Right. And I, and they would gimme the letter and I'd get it.

See, and I'll do that just to see how they, what words they use, how they use the words, et cetera, et cetera. And then I would take that, right? And I would write a letter to his wife and then give it to, in his words, and give it to him and tell him to write it in his handwriting. And the next weekend she'll be in visitation or a child, or a kid, you know what I'm saying?

Because, and it, and it's so many brothers, man, that, that, that I did that for that, that, because I just understood, you know, I understood, you know, I understood how we get off, you know? Yeah. And it's the, the thing that comes to me too, Antong, is often we are not given the language, man, right? So, When you don't have the language or been taught how to express, right?

How can you do that? Right? So I sense that you are a bit of this. I don't know, I have a vision of you, of like an empathy translator or something like, like, here's this. Let, let's add a little bit of love and empathy and understanding in here , because that's the stuff we know. Yeah. That, that you're not given, right?

Like when we look at so much of the discord in life. Yeah. And, and you talk about it, right? That humanity is at the core. And if love is at the core, then we can learn to effectively communicate, right? But if that's also been taken from you, right, that you don't even have the language to express who you are and then to share that with another person, then the system automatically wins.

Because it creates a divide because you don't have the information that's in a way that you can do, that you can share it. That's exactly what I realized with a lot of the men that I was dealing with in prison. I realized exactly what you said, that because from my vantage point, I was hearing men who loved their wives.

Mm-hmm. , I, I was hearing men who were loving their children. Who, who, who figured, you know, but they didn't, they couldn't communicate that. They didn't know how to articulate that because of, because they had these beliefs that they had to be this white, this rigid white. Right. And so when I was seeing the communication, I'm saying, oh, this is a communication barrier.

You know, this is a communication barrier. And I saw instance where, where all they had to do was say this or. Whatever the case may be, but it was a block right there. And so I began to, like you said, I ain't never heard that before, . Well, I literally have, I, I see things in visions, but I saw you sitting there computing, right?

Between all the things you knew about neuroscience and development and empathy and compassion and then like basically printing out this thing and say, here . Yeah. This is what you're really trying to say, . Yeah, but I felt like it, I promise you it was bringing them back together like this. Right. They were coming back together like next weekend, rehabilitation family in debilitation.

And I'm like, it's on you now. You gotta, you know, it's on you. And so I just think, you know, that that kinda work, especially for our neighborhoods, our kids, our community. They call it social emotional learning now, but that kinda work for our kids who have a scores out out the chart. It is necessary. I mean, it's definitely, definitely necessary.

It's a lot of barriers that go in the way that that kind of block us, that we, we have to address, right. We have to address in terms of, uh, us finding out who we really are and being, showing up our authentic selves. Right. It's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. When you do that kind of work, but it's necessary work.

And that's the work that you're doing. Yes, me. So let's talk a little bit about that work that you're doing in this space and, and what you've even discovered by continuing to support the community. But I know you work with the police. You, you still work with gangs and things, so let's just talk a little bit about that.

I do. I, I do a lot of work on various levels, but I do, I'll tell you what I love the most. I do love working with, I do love working with my teenagers. I do love working with my black men because we've been hit the most, right? We've been hit the most. So I love that work, like when I'm working with the, with the juvenile, with the kids, maybe, uh, justice involved, et cetera, et cetera.

It's interesting, right? Because I know I, I, I have a knack for that. Very skilled and really getting these kids to see, because a lot of times when I'm, when I'm dealing with those kids and I get to the other work, but we're dealing with the kids, right? I always ask the question I got a go-to, to really get us in a real, a real space and that go-to is when I began to ask them about they fathers, right?

How many fathers household, how many seeing they father in the last month, so forth and so on, that always strike a nerve, whether it's boy, young men or young women, it always strike a nerve, right? And I'm sure to get kids who will cry, who will ball crazy, they will cry because those, those emotions be so sensitive, right?

Mm-hmm.  because they, because they're those kids who were like me, you know, who, who father was outta their life. And it was a touchy issue for me. And so when somebody un layered that and somebody started asking, digging right there, it's gonna touch you because you can't hide that, right? And when I'm dealing with those kids, But I asked them that they begin to express those kind of emotions, right?

And once I get those emotions out of 'em, I connect it to their fathers not being their life, et cetera, et cetera, and how they can, you know, address it and create a space and et cetera, et and then vice versa. I do the same stuff with men, but like black men, I do these black men healing groups where we have duck men, we meet regularly and we create safe spaces for these men, right?

And you'll be surprised at the number of men who are our age, you know, who dealing with issues that they never dealt with. I mean, that, that we create that space and we have grown men. I'm talking about it don't be a dry eye, that cry like they three years old because they never dealt with the trauma that they, that that's been operating in they life since childhood.

I mean, and it is like a chain reaction, right? I lead these groups. And one guy can be sharing, man, it just become a chain wreck because everybody experiencing the same Trump, they can feel it. Yeah. There's no space because society has said, Hey, you have to be this certain way. You can't have feelings, you can't cry, et cetera, et cetera.

And you have to be hard. And, and men know that that's not true. You can't maintain that. You know, that's not healthy. And so we provide this space for men to talk about the stuff that they dealing with, et cetera, et cetera. Because we believe that when you start dealing, un layering those traumas, then when you get a person to they court, then they can show up in their authentic self.

Then they can be a help to our community, et cetera, et and then of course, do the work with, with police officers as well. Because all this is around trauma and the way we figure and the way we see. But when we, and, and in this society, it's easier to judge, it's easier to condemn, it's to convict. Sitting behind your computer screen or looking on your phone versus really having conversations, awkward, hard conversations to get to solutions.

And so we believe in, even as it relates to, uh, law enforcement in our communities, that we have to bring those two entities together. And it gets awkward to get uncomfortable sometimes, but that's okay because that's where you, that's where you get the education from. That's where you educate people from.

That's where you understand that proximity give you understanding that's relationships build, et cetera, et cetera. And that's the key to the, a lot of the work that we do, our work is around, we say violence, disrupting violence and poverty, but it's really in really having relationships, bringing people closer.

To have these relationships in the age of technology. So that's, and that, and that spans all over. I mean, I, I do a lot of stuff. We'll be here to 10 30 tonight. I talk about everything that I do. I know you're a superhero. You're, they're living as a shuman. I, I thank you for just sharing some of those elements.

One of the things too, you mentioned around the connection with fathers and you were able to reconnect with your father, and you mentioned wanting to stay hard, but soon as you. Connected with him, you automatically felt those emotions. And so I'm sure you share that with the children or other men. Once again, you have the story, you lived it.

Yes. That allows people to open up to live their story. Exactly. And I think, and I think, and you have little Craig, you did read the book. I do. I'll say that. You read the book. You definitely read the book. Yeah. But that, that, that's true though. I did, I mean, I remember saying to myself that I was gonna keep this demeanor, this hard demeanor with him because, you know, I had some trauma and some stuff I dealt with in ways I thought, and, and I, and I had, I played out my, my first interaction with him, how it was gonna go.

I played this out in my mind. Right. Because I was gonna be tough. And I, and the moment I saw him, I just broke, you know, and we just held each other and cried. And that was, and that was therapeutic for me. You know, that was mm-hmm.  very therapeutic for me. And I, and, and. The work that I do with the kids, because it's the same thing.

Right. You know, you know, they, they would, the kids would be like, Hey, I hate him. I can't stand him. I hate him. And then they, they would've these very feelings toward, they, they, but I know the ab under that, that's hurt. You know, they hurt. Mm-hmm. , you know, they hurt because, you know, the absence, regardless of what the absence is, it communicates something to a child.

And so, and, and it's, and nine out 10 it's hurt. Mm-hmm. . And so we began to kinda, you know, heal that hurt. That's, that's right there. And that's what happened with me when my father, you know, it was, you know, my father did 37 years. I was 30, 37 years out of my life. And tend to see this guy who looks exactly like me, very light skinned, but he looked just.

And, and look younger than me because he's prison for surgeon. And, and, and we just melted. I mean, I, Mel melted and I remember just sitting there crying, like, just holding him, you know? And so that's why I'm, that's why I'm so inspired by this work, you know, doing this work. That's what keeps me going, doing this work.

'cause I love to see when relationships are formed, when people are healed, when, when, when, when, when men all, all the teenagers get it. Mm-hmm. They had that  moment to transcend these identities. Society, you know, they, because, because, because, and I'm be quiet because quite frankly, we do take on an identity that's that, that, that, that society gives us, right?

That, that takes us away from who we are at the core. And we have to get back to our original identity. We have to get back to our original self and we get back to our original self is. Is eroding those walls and those, those things that we put up and we put 'em up to protect us, but they end up keeping us away from the love and the nurturing that we leave as human beings.

Because as humans we have to have love. We can't be hard, cold, uh, malice jealous. We have to be nurtured and love you. That's interconnectedness is what makes us human beings right? And so it's ODed in that stuff so that we can connect with you. So that's why I love is work and I can feel, I can feel the love and I just so appreciate you just really bringing it all together, right?

Because, and what you continue to reinforce, Is that communication, connection and love and breaking away from all of these labels and those types of things. Even working with, whether it's the police or activists or gang members, whatever the case is, and seeing them as human, I would assume, actually allows you to have more access.

And we talk about proximity. I mean, you've been in so many different spaces, right? The White House to, I think you went to Russia, to all these spaces, and had you kept the mindset that the only way you were going to do this work was only working with a certain demographic or a certain political party or a certain religious affiliation, you would not be making the shifts and moves and impacts that you're making.

And I would love for you to share about how important that is. I thank you for that question. It's super important because my fundamental belief is God is love. I just fundamentally believe it. I mean, God is love and so, and I understand when I'm looking at people, regardless of what label, regardless of what party is, regardless of who they are, what they occupation is, at the core of each individual is love.

They want, they, it's love. It's, that's at the core of every individual. I don't care who they're the most worst person at the core of them is love. And so if you look at people like that, I don't look at people in love, I look at people. I mean, I don't look at people in labels. I look at 'em in love. Like every, regardless of what they are, what they occupation is profession.

People are connected by love and people wanna be validated, wanna feel, they wanna belong in, you know, it's Maslow's hierarchy and needs. So when I understand that, right, I approach people like that. I approach people like that. And people, I don't care what the hardest exterior they gonna milk, you know?

And if you know anything about those glaciers that's up in the Antarctica, when them things, there's up. And so I know that even when I approach officers and, and, and they, you know, when I'm dealing with police and I'm doing trainings, they would start out with the snares. Mm-hmm.  in the igloo being the glacier.

But by the time I get through with 'em, they'll be hugging me, loving me, saying How can we work together? And I think that's what has allowed me. Go this journey that I've been on and I've been on one hell of a journey and some spaces with some people, and it just, you know, and I know as God, it's, it's, it's all of that, right?

Because I truly at the core of me love people. I really love people and I believe love is the answer to all of the problems in the world. And we just learn to love people and not judge, and not, you know, all that other stuff. We can make way, you know, we can make way and some, and it's hard sometimes it's hard because people have been in situations where they, where they where love has been taken advantage of and it, but, but love is patient.

Love is kind and so you have to be patient with people. Has God been patient with you? You know, I wanna always like this and so, but I acknowledge that, you know, at some point God was patient with me. So I have to extend that same patience to people. That I come in contact with and I know some people get it in levels just 'cause they don't get it now don't mean they won't get it later.

Our job is to leave people to the water, right to the purity of the water. They'll drink or bathe when they get ready. You know, oftentimes we, we try to force 'em to drink and bathe when we walk them to our job is simply just to lead 'em to the water, just show 'em where it's at, and then when they ready they'll take a drink or they'll take a bath.

That's our job. So beautiful of recognizing the role and. Not forcing change and recognizing, I mean, I think that anyone who does this type of work is sometimes be challenging 'cause you also have this deep desire. 'cause you know what's on the other side when they take the drink or bathe. Right? And you just like get outta water.

So that, so there's a part of you that has to remember, right? You went on your journey, you didn't bathe the first time and you didn't take a sip the first time. Right? So part of it is remembering that element. And, and the other part too that you, that you brought up is recognizing that all of us at some capacity has this element of trauma.

Right. And, and understanding that that has such a significant impact on how people show up their comfort level with other people, their openness, their vulnerability, because we all came in here with love. But something shifted that, and I love that you continue to bring that up as a reminder. Yeah. That when we remember that.

It also makes it easier for us to see the humanity in individual because we recognize that's not how they came in the world. And I, and I just, and I'm gonna tell you when, when we get that the world is a better place, you know, the world is a better place. We have that, that kind of patience, that kind understanding for other people, the world becomes a better place because it's then, it's not about, it's not about ego, it's about the individual.

You know? So the world becomes better when we like that, when, when you just gave an example of we, we get 'em to the water, we try to push 'em in , we want drink and we want them to drink. And so that's, that's, that's the ego in us. And so, and so if we can, if we can always challenge the ego, because one thing I do, I'm always challenging myself, challenging the ego of me.

Challenging myself, and it's a never ending challenge, you know? So it ain't like you can challenge and then you're good. You don't never stop. It's always constantly challenging myself so that I don't become selfish, so it don't become about me. It's always about the work and the mission and not knowing I'm not getting the glory.

I'm not seeking glory. I'm really doing what I believe is my purpose and, and I live in my prayer. That's why this don't what I do. And I, it don't even feel like work because I just do it. It's it's purpose for me. So I do it and I'm energized and I wake up. I'm always spanking, I'm always saying, how can I, how can I bring value to something, to someone?

That's how I think. So it, it don't even feel like work to someone else. They say to me, man, you all over the place. You here, you there you at? Do you ever sleep? But this, this don't feel like work. This is. Purpose. You know, everything I do is purpose. I'm constantly chasing God's blessings. I'm, I'm chasing the blessings, , and I'll get tired of chasing the blessing.

That's why I'm blessed. I'm blessed because I'm always trying to be a blessing. I'm always chasing, and I'm always checking myself to make sure that I'm not driven by ego. I'm not trying to self aggrandize. You know, I'm always checking myself against that. And, and, and sometimes when I do fall short, quick to repent and apologize and, and try to address that, that behavior, that action.

So I'm always doing, it's just like a mechanism and the, and the element of your humanness, right? As someone who is so self-aware and going through your own healing journey. I know you recently . Started going to therapy. Mm-hmm. . And so I'm just curious what like brought that on, how you feel that can help others, because we know also, I mean black and brown communities, but just in general, there's still this, and I think you even mentioned this when you were talking about therapy was there's still a bit of a stigma, you know, you, you crazy or something's really wrong with you.

So as someone who's so hyper aware, who has done so much healing, had mentors and things of that nature, what is that doing for you and, and what are your thoughts with others using therapy, leveraging therapy or other modalities support, right. To help them on their journeys? Man, I think for me it has definitely helped me because in my case, for me personally, I am for my, and for my family, I'm Santa Claus.

I am the godfather. I am who everybody go to, right? Even in my work, In my work, having a company, having one company with about 30 employees, another company with another 20, and other stuff that I have, I'm always at the head of the table making all the decisions, et cetera, et cetera. And so when you in that position, you oftentimes don't have other people who you can, who can, who can, who, who you can trust with, with, with your inner thoughts and secrets and all that good stuff.

Whatever you got going in your head. So, so you don't have that, right. So therapy for me is bit matter, right? It, it allows me, again, a brave space. I wouldn't say safe, a brave space. Mm. To be able to be brave and, and just deal with it and un unravel what I'm doing. So it's, it's been helping me. I mean, it's, I always, I love it.

I love my theory and I understand. So, so that's me personally. Mm-hmm. , and I understand what you just said for our communities. We've been deprived of therapy because of the stigmas and the taboo that's associated with it. It, it's kinda like the old saying, you want some something from a black person put in the book, right?

Mm-hmm.  the book and read and realize this, what all the knowledge was, right? Therapy is to me the same way. It, it's, you know, for us we didn't, we, because we looked at it a certain way or maybe because we couldn't afford it. Right. Could be that too. We didn't, we couldn't afford it. Probably a combination of things, right?

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. A combination of both. So we never ventured, we never ventured to it. You know, we've never, we never tried it out. And so I wanna be, for me, in my community, I wanna be, and using my influence, I wanna be just like I was, was in prison. I want to be the one who, who be so open and transparent about my life because I, my life is open and transparent.

I wanna be the person who makes. Cool. Make, make it okay. Make, so, and I've been doing it, making some people say, well, lemme, lemme try that out. How this working for you? You know how people come to you? They like Yeah. Not, not a curious Hmm. So what they do when they,

she, you know, does she look good? You know, they, they answer . They wanna, they wanna ask all the questions. Right. So I'm using that, I'm using my therapy journey to get more people in our communities to, to look at that in other ways dealing. 'cause we as, as a people, we've done, we've dealt with a lot, there's a lot of, we have a lot of trauma just by Sure.

Being born in certain communities, generational trauma is real trauma. Right. And so we have to begin now, especially with a lot of information, we have to begin to explore other ways of dealing with that stuff and not just, As we, as it had been in the past, we bottled it up and we kept our mouth closed.

And I think that's probably contributed to the highest rate from dia, uh, diabetes, stress, heart attacks, et cetera, et cetera, because of all the stuff that we put up here that, and, and here that we never get to deal with. I think Trump, I mean, you know, part of releasing that stress is being able to talk about it and unwind it and all that good stuff.

And we, and we need that. So I wanna be on the front line of encouraging men, especially black men and black families, that it's okay that it's okay. That don't mean you crave that it's okay to go talk to someone that's right for you to help you deal with some of the. And so it's been a, it's been a blessing for me.

I mean, it's been a blessing for my family as well. You know, I'm leading the way in my whole fa family getting that's, that's interesting. We can talk about that. Another, you, another trail you, another trailblazer and trailblazing the way in another way. And I thank you for sharing that. Like you say, of.

There is an assumption that because everybody's talking about mental health and you know, you even have, you know, other people that are in your, in your arena and cel celebrities and things of this nature, I think there's sometimes this assumption that people are still open and willing to do it, and that's not necessarily the case.

Right. And so the big thing that we also see is there has to be a relatability or resonance. I, and, and that's what I keep going back to with you is people are connected, they're seeing themselves. So when they see themselves and they in you, then they're like, okay, maybe this is for me. Right? Right. And so I think that's a part that's sometimes lost.

You can get the message, but until you can see it with someone that feels like you came from you experiencing you, does that create a bit of curiosity that is possible and will work for you. Right. And I think, and with that, when the curiosity come, we just have to be, we have to be. In bring, give people the tools to, uh, to explore their own, because I don't never want portray like I'm perfect, like I got all the answers.

I think that even for the people that follow me and the people that I deal with, I'm quick to say that, right? I'm quick to say, a guy asked me, I was just in Las Vegas at a prison last week, right? Maximum security prison. Uh, man, and a guy had stood up and asked me, like, he said, he said, Mr. Lucky, the temptations are out there, so he, so do you ever deal with, with temptations?

I said, brother, I deal with temptations every day. . I said, bro, I deal with temptations every day. I, I said, please do not interpret this message to believe that once you walk out these doors, all the temptations gone. Once you make up your mind to be on this path. I said, as a matter of fact, they probably height right.

I did every. The choice that you make. You know, and we all have a choice to make. We all have a choice to make. And so, you know, you gotta, whatever choice you make, you know you got those two wolves that's, that's inside of you. And I said, you know, as the story go whichever wolves you feed the most, so you feeding the wolves with temptation, that's the wood that's going override.

If you, you know, you the, with discipline he gonna override. So, so yeah, those, those, um, That's, that's true. I mean, that's that's true. I'm not prepared. And that is something too, before we close that is so important, right? Is that, and you talked about the ego and also people ensuring they don't create this perception of you that creates a savior, a god complex, and forget the humanness of all of us, but particularly those in these leadership positions.

'cause we see that, right? And then that's what makes it even difficult to show the vulnerability because this, this element of you being higher than that or greater than that starts to consume people. So it's great that you're like reminding, you're literally holding people accountable to remembering that you are human regardless of the mission and the cause.

Right? And, and lemme say this, Nicole, like I'm a, I consider myself. Spiritual, right? Mm-hmm. , I really do believe God is love, right? So that means I can go to a moss, I can go to the church, I can go to a temple, and I can get a message from me. I can go to therapy and I can get a message from me. So whatever your choice, that's your choice.

And, and I don't have a problem with it, but just using the example of, uh, church, right? I'm gonna use church for an example. I tell people all the time that, uh, if you begin to watch the pastor and you base your, your experience off the pastor, you miss the mess. You miss the mark. I said, no matter where you go, for me, I'm always looking for inspiration that's applicable to my life.

No matter where I go, I'm always looking for a word, a thought, a sound, a rhythm that I can apply to my life. I caution people against the Messiah complex, right? Mm-hmm. . For thinking that they, Jesus Jr or somebody caution people against that, that you have to really find what works for you, right? And, and not, and, and not look at men or, or human beings as being this, this, this excellent, perfect creature.

If, if you focus on that, you missed the message, you missed the mark, you have to work. You have to focus on what works for you. And it can't be in the form of a person because the person is just a conduit for the message. And the person don't have to be perfect. They just have to condu the message that we all have our medicine, that that's made up of our experiences and the way we articulate, the way we compute, in the way we process, that becomes our medicine.

Our medicine is not for us, only our medicine for other people. And other people have to know how to take the medicine without taking the person. You know? You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Yes, yes. I do take the medicine. Yes, I do. You have? Yes. I, if I say yes one more time, they'll be like, okay, Nicole. Yes. And it's so powerful because I mean, there's so much wrapped into that  Yes.

That maybe that's another me, uh, episode. But that part to your point is you are a channel, a vessel. Vessel. Right. And keeping that in mind is, as a person who is that, but also the individual who is taking in or consuming the medicine and separating that from the individual. That is super powerful. Yeah.

Is there, so we're gonna close. Is there anything else, based on what we talked about, you know, knowing that. People are, are struggling, right? They are dealing with their identity, they're still dealing with the systems that are up against them and environments that they are having that duality. Is there anything that you'd like to share as we close to, to keep them moving forward in the way that, you know, that you've been driven to do and how you help others do that?

Yes. I, I would just simply say this, right, that early on when I was saying that we all, all of us are, are guilty of living in a box, our perception box, and that box is made up of fits and pieces of information, ideas, ideology, rhetoric that creates our box, this our box, our world. We all guilty of that, we all the labels, et cetera.

But if I could tell anybody some something positive, I would say that that box. Only exists in our minds. Mm. That we have the ability to, uh, come out that box. We have the ability to come out that box. Those things that, that shaped who you are, that went in the good, the bad, the ugly you had within you. The power to come out of that box.

You know, oftentimes we think we are trapped in a box, but we have the power to come out that box, right? And transcend identity. We have that ability to be and show up authentically who we are. Those traumas that we have. Everyone have those troubles, but we have to be able to come out the box. We have to come out the box and be who we are.

Thank you so much, Antong. I have so appreciated this conversation, uh, so powerful and we'll have in the show notes all the ways to connect with Antong, all the amazing organizations that he's part of. I will close with a reminder to pick up the book and it'll be in the show notes, a redemptive path forward.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope this episode enriched your life, and so please review, subscribe, and share this episode with others. Let's continue to grow together, transcend to new heights, and create a life that truly reflect who we are and see you soon on, on another episode. It's a transcending identity.

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